I'm sorry, I have to take issue with you on the fundamental assumption, which seems to be: "But slavery and genocide, though they went on for way too long and their legacy lives on, were extreme situations. We don’t expect that kind of behavior now."
History news flash: It's only been 80 years or so since mass slavery and worse were practiced by the "civilized" Eurasian states of Nazi Germany and the USSR. If we are willing to consider human recorded history as a reference, then the better part of those 5000 years has known "institutional extreme situations" on a rather recurring basis.
So, it shouldn't surprise us if it happens now or in the future. I believe we should expect that kind of behavior now. If we continue to believe that humans have somehow "become better," then we will likely continue to be surprised by what should not really be surprising. (Is Nick Fuentes really an aberration, or instead a symptom of "ordinary" misogyny?)
All of this is to say that I wholeheartedly agree with the goals, but I can't see how assuming that humanity should know better is a way to reach a more noble state. Does that seem pessimistic? Perhaps. And please believe me that there are times like the present when I wish I could say I wasn't a male because Epstein, Fuentes, and these other monsters make me feel ashamed to be a male. But history can make us more honest about our present, such as it is.
So, for hope, yes, let's educate our sons. And let's promote what "gentle" should mean in gentlemen.
It's true, we've been exhibiting extreme behavior throughout our history. The picture in pre-history isn't so clear, but then our social groups were smaller and more self-regulating. All that said, I still didn't expect such widespread extreme behavior now. Maybe I should have, but I didn't. Let's hope the education of our sons goes in a better direction in the future.
Thanks as always for your perspective, Rosana. It’s interesting; when I called up your story, the first thing I saw was the word “shame” in the photo. And I have been saying for some time now that we need to bring shame back. The current regime basically shot shame in the street. Now everyone seems to feel that all their worst impulses should not only be accepted, but celebrated. It’s demoralizing.
So true — even if this stuff has always been going on, there were better checks for it when shame was involved. That tool was frequently used in the past, and while it still works now in some cases, it isn't working well enough.
A disturbing topic, but an important one, so thank you for sharing your thoughts on it. As we discussed the other night at dinner, I feel we grew up in a kind of a golden age, or at least a golden illusion, when we felt that the “arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.” (MLK) That may still be true, and I hope that it is, but it seems to be flattening now, and even bending back on itself. Is this something new and shocking, or is it the world just being what it’s always been, save for a few enlightened periods? The resistance of the No Kings rallies, and of the brave people of Minnesota gives me hope. There are dark and evil forces that have been rising in recent years, but I also see the forces of good and resistance rising even stronger. The evil forces have control of the government now though, and until we can wrest that back, we are in for turbulent times.
That's a good, though sad, description of the moral arc these days. Let's hope those bends in the back direction that we're seeing now are small bends in the bigger arc, and that we just can't see the bigger picture because we're in the middle of it. Yes, those evil forces were there before, but they weren't always as visible as they are now. I hope that will help us fight them.
I guess with any movement towards progress, fairness, and equality, there is always a backlash from those who don’t want that. Right now we’re in a very strong backlash, including from those who feel they should have the right to dominate and abuse women, and even children. There is also a backlash building in the other direction, though, so let’s hope we can build on that.
I kinda agree with RO that we *should* expect this kind of behavior. Misogyny runs so incredibly deep (as do racism and violence). I agree that these especially horrendous and public examples can at least serve to wake some of us up a bit further (though I fear that those who need waking up most will stay asleep). I wonder how much of an underbelly it is when the prez is a rapist, as is at least one Supreme Court justice, etc.? Is it an underbelly, or do we just walk around blind to others' (women's and others') suffering? Anyway, I'll shut up now, and thanks for writing about this! xo
Indeed we should expect it — I just didn't realize how very extreme and widespread it was. Having a rapist president is still relatively new to us, even if you count his first term. It's certainly an underbelly I was unaware of, or at least unaware of its extent. The Epstein thing is turning out to be so much bigger than it seemed at first.
Misogyny does run so, so deep. I wonder when it really started. I mean, we can probably never know, but it would be interesting to know. Everything I read these days about "primitive" cultures makes them sound much more egalitarian, but who knows how accurate that is. I want to think there was a time before misogyny, because that gives me more hope we can overcome it. That won't happen in our lifetimes, but I hope it will happen.
I'm sorry, I have to take issue with you on the fundamental assumption, which seems to be: "But slavery and genocide, though they went on for way too long and their legacy lives on, were extreme situations. We don’t expect that kind of behavior now."
History news flash: It's only been 80 years or so since mass slavery and worse were practiced by the "civilized" Eurasian states of Nazi Germany and the USSR. If we are willing to consider human recorded history as a reference, then the better part of those 5000 years has known "institutional extreme situations" on a rather recurring basis.
So, it shouldn't surprise us if it happens now or in the future. I believe we should expect that kind of behavior now. If we continue to believe that humans have somehow "become better," then we will likely continue to be surprised by what should not really be surprising. (Is Nick Fuentes really an aberration, or instead a symptom of "ordinary" misogyny?)
All of this is to say that I wholeheartedly agree with the goals, but I can't see how assuming that humanity should know better is a way to reach a more noble state. Does that seem pessimistic? Perhaps. And please believe me that there are times like the present when I wish I could say I wasn't a male because Epstein, Fuentes, and these other monsters make me feel ashamed to be a male. But history can make us more honest about our present, such as it is.
So, for hope, yes, let's educate our sons. And let's promote what "gentle" should mean in gentlemen.
It's true, we've been exhibiting extreme behavior throughout our history. The picture in pre-history isn't so clear, but then our social groups were smaller and more self-regulating. All that said, I still didn't expect such widespread extreme behavior now. Maybe I should have, but I didn't. Let's hope the education of our sons goes in a better direction in the future.
Thanks as always for your perspective, Rosana. It’s interesting; when I called up your story, the first thing I saw was the word “shame” in the photo. And I have been saying for some time now that we need to bring shame back. The current regime basically shot shame in the street. Now everyone seems to feel that all their worst impulses should not only be accepted, but celebrated. It’s demoralizing.
So true — even if this stuff has always been going on, there were better checks for it when shame was involved. That tool was frequently used in the past, and while it still works now in some cases, it isn't working well enough.
A disturbing topic, but an important one, so thank you for sharing your thoughts on it. As we discussed the other night at dinner, I feel we grew up in a kind of a golden age, or at least a golden illusion, when we felt that the “arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.” (MLK) That may still be true, and I hope that it is, but it seems to be flattening now, and even bending back on itself. Is this something new and shocking, or is it the world just being what it’s always been, save for a few enlightened periods? The resistance of the No Kings rallies, and of the brave people of Minnesota gives me hope. There are dark and evil forces that have been rising in recent years, but I also see the forces of good and resistance rising even stronger. The evil forces have control of the government now though, and until we can wrest that back, we are in for turbulent times.
That's a good, though sad, description of the moral arc these days. Let's hope those bends in the back direction that we're seeing now are small bends in the bigger arc, and that we just can't see the bigger picture because we're in the middle of it. Yes, those evil forces were there before, but they weren't always as visible as they are now. I hope that will help us fight them.
I guess with any movement towards progress, fairness, and equality, there is always a backlash from those who don’t want that. Right now we’re in a very strong backlash, including from those who feel they should have the right to dominate and abuse women, and even children. There is also a backlash building in the other direction, though, so let’s hope we can build on that.
❤️
I kinda agree with RO that we *should* expect this kind of behavior. Misogyny runs so incredibly deep (as do racism and violence). I agree that these especially horrendous and public examples can at least serve to wake some of us up a bit further (though I fear that those who need waking up most will stay asleep). I wonder how much of an underbelly it is when the prez is a rapist, as is at least one Supreme Court justice, etc.? Is it an underbelly, or do we just walk around blind to others' (women's and others') suffering? Anyway, I'll shut up now, and thanks for writing about this! xo
Indeed we should expect it — I just didn't realize how very extreme and widespread it was. Having a rapist president is still relatively new to us, even if you count his first term. It's certainly an underbelly I was unaware of, or at least unaware of its extent. The Epstein thing is turning out to be so much bigger than it seemed at first.
Misogyny does run so, so deep. I wonder when it really started. I mean, we can probably never know, but it would be interesting to know. Everything I read these days about "primitive" cultures makes them sound much more egalitarian, but who knows how accurate that is. I want to think there was a time before misogyny, because that gives me more hope we can overcome it. That won't happen in our lifetimes, but I hope it will happen.
Bravo, Rosana! Thank you for your boldness in writing about this often dismissed topic. I especially like your last couple of paragraphs.
Thank you so much, Barbara! I really appreciate your reading and commenting.